00:00-00:03
Welcome to Stand Up to Stand Out, the podcast.

00:05-00:07
Helping you master how you communicate.

00:08-00:09
Let’s dive in.

00:10-00:14
I’m very happy to have as my guest, Ando LeCamp.

00:14-00:18
She is many things, but I’m going to read this to make sure I get it right.

00:18-00:22
She’s an educator, a writer, and a researcher with a very interesting background.

00:23-00:33
Not only selling wine in New York, that’s something I want to touch on, building startups, but now is in a cognitive neuroscience program at King’s college in London.

00:34-00:38
She writes a very regular newsletter, which I consume as much as possible.

00:38-00:42
It is dense, full of actionable, fascinating articles, insights.

00:43-00:47
And I just love being part of this, um, community that you’re building.

00:47-00:51
And I am determined to join more of your programs or a program in the new year.

00:52-01:12
And so today, uh, what I’d like to do is move around a little bit because you We have such a broad and varied and interesting background, but I want to also make sure that we give some practical and tactical advice for people who are incredibly busy, but looking to make a difference in the fast moving world of science, of tech and biotech.

01:12-01:24
So with that, um, well, I’d like to start somewhere in left field, if you will, because on your page about you, you’d mentioned selling wine in New York or French wine.

01:24-01:32
And I would love to know, you know, from that experience, what you learned about persuasive communication, or maybe it was easy to just present.

01:33-01:37
What did you learn about the sort of power of communication from that experience?

01:38-01:42
I actually completely forgot that this was on my bio on my website.

01:42-01:43
So this is funny.

01:44-01:45
I don’t get that question asked very often.

01:46-01:46
Okay.

01:47-01:48
Well, I read it.

01:48-01:49
Yes.

01:49-01:53
It’s actually a funny story because I was in my early 20s at the time.

01:54-02:00
And when I interviewed for the job, I actually didn’t really speak a lot of English.

02:01-02:05
And I remember telling my friends, I will never get that job.

02:05-02:07
The interview was completely awful.

02:08-02:10
I didn’t manage to answer half of the questions.

02:11-02:12
And then I got the job.

02:13-02:14
And so they gave me a visa.

02:15-02:18
I moved from Paris to New York for six months.

02:19-02:20
to sell French wine.

02:21-02:26
And I discovered once I got there that the reason why I got the job was because my English was so bad.

02:27-02:32
And because it was French wine that they were selling, they thought that my really thick accent would actually be a plus.

02:33-02:36
So that was funny to discover once I got there.

02:36-03:21
And what I learned when I was there was that what was most convincing to people when selling this wine, I was going from shop to shop and I was carrying those cases of wine and I was setting up a table and then trying to sell as many cases as possible, people didn’t really care about the technical aspect of how the wine was made or which grapes or all of those kind of things. What they cared about the most was the story behind each wine, the family that was producing it, the area, what it was like, the culture, What was important to them was feeling equipped with a story.

03:21-03:32
So if they bought that wine and they opened that bottle at a dinner at home with friends, that they would be able to say why they bought that wine and not another one.

03:33-03:38
And so that was most of the work that I did before going to any shop and selling that wine.

03:39-03:48
I would read about the family history, the castle, the culture of that region, because that’s what people wanted to hear.

03:48-04:02
I find this fascinating because I’ve always talked about in communication training that oftentimes you’re not communicating with the audience in front of you, but it’s that person’s audience and maybe even beyond that.

04:02-04:04
So it’s like a ripples in a pond.

04:05-04:11
And I always encourage people when you’re selling an idea, make the idea portable.

04:11-04:20
And this was confirmation of that, that if they could hold on to a story that was interesting to them, then they could use that in their social circles.

04:21-04:22
So it’s fascinating.

04:22-04:26
And in any case, that’s how we connect, right?

04:26-04:27
Through stories.

04:27-04:30
This is how we bond to each other.

04:31-04:38
And that was particularly evident in that field because it was around food and that shared special time that you have when you have dinner with people.

04:39-04:42
but I think that’s the case for any kind of human interaction that you have.

04:43-04:46
So just one more follow-up for that.

04:46-06:17
When you were building these stories by researching and the family and their values and where they were, were there certain elements in your mind that you knew you had to hit upon to have a fleshed out full story that would then resonate with an audience so that you increased your odds that this story was going to be not only resonant, but portable? I was always looking for a little nugget that felt strange or surprising because I knew that people would not necessarily be able to remember the entire story that I was telling them. It was just one conversation that we were having while they were trying the wine in the store. But if there was one interesting fact, something that they didn’t expect. That’s what they would be more likely to remember, but also that would make them make the decision of getting that wine. We love sharing fun facts and things that are slightly surprising. It’s not my field of research, but I’ve read that from an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense because anything that’s predictable is not something that we need to pay a lot of attention to, but anything that’s unpredictable can either be an amazing opportunity or it can be a threat to our survival. So when we hear a story that’s surprising, we pay attention.

06:18-06:20
So I was always trying to find something surprising.

06:22-06:43
This reminds me of a concept that I heard coined maybe a hundred years ago called Maya, which when you’re launching new products or services to make them the most advanced yet achievable, or I think the last A is, you know, something that feels, you know, different enough, but relatable.

06:43-07:49
And it’s that tension between, I understand this, but there’s something there that is new and worth paying attention to. So it feels like it taps into that where we want something to feel familiar but different enough. That’s actually how we make sense of the world. You need to, for it to be able to integrate new information, you need to be able to connect it to existing knowledge that you have. If someone gives you information that is completely unrelated to anything that you have come across before, it’s simply not going to make sense. You’re not going to connect with it or relate or be able to know what to do with it. So it’s very important that it connects with something that you know already, but also that it expands that knowledge in some way that it’s not a complete copy and paste of something you know already, because again, you’re not going to pay attention if it feels predictable. I want to talk a little bit about motivation. This is something that I’ve been thinking about for a few years now.

07:50-08:48
And I read on one of your articles recently, the difference between intrinsic motivation, something inside of you, extrinsic motivation. Now, my understanding, and I could be wrong, was that extrinsic motivation, this could be salary or titles, recognition, something in the physical world that everyone can point to. It sort of hits a plateau that at a certain point, we cannot continue to affect that lever and continue to throw money at people to say, you’re making this much now, you can work twice as hard for double the money. It’s not a direct relationship, but intrinsic motivation. This is something that people can use to fuel their fire as they’re pursuing long, difficult goals. And I always wonder about can one, how can one optimize one’s own intrinsic motivation to keep those fires burning for the longer challenging goals?

08:48-09:37
because a lot of my my clients and people in my world have very long-term goals you know it could be decades even so to really keep that that motivation inside you know what what’s your understanding of fueling intrinsic motivation from what you’ve seen or experience or even the research it really boils down to self-knowledge. You need to figure out what are the emotions that make you want to get up in the morning, that give you energy rather than drain your energy, the interactions that have that effect on you. For some people, and that’s my case, curiosity is an immense source of intrinsic motivation.

09:38-09:39
I’m extremely curious.

09:40-09:46
And if I notice a gap in my knowledge, I will want to fill it.

09:46-09:47
I will want to figure out what is it?

09:47-09:48
How does it work?

09:49-10:03
And a great way to motivate me, actually, and that I had great managers in the past that knew that about me is formulating those goals that they had for me in a way that would speak to my curiosity.

10:03-10:12
So instead of telling me, hey, I need you to do this, a simple trick that worked with me was, I’m not quite sure how to go about this.

10:12-10:16
What do you think? And that would be enough for me to feel motivated.

10:16-10:24
I’m giving you a very simplified version of it because obviously you start seeing these tricks after a while and it doesn’t work this way.

10:24-10:30
But so if it’s for intrinsic motivation, motivating yourself, figuring out what that is.

10:30-10:48
So as I said, for me, it’s curiosity. For some people, it can be seeing the impact of their work on other people. So knowing that they have an impact, knowing that they’re positively changing the world, that can be an amazing source of intrinsic motivation.

10:50-11:03
For other people, it’s just self-improvement, getting better themselves, knowing that they’re improving, that they’re pushing the limits of their zone of comfort, that they’re increasing their levels of confidence.

11:04-11:09
So I would recommend spending a little bit of time thinking about this.

11:10-11:13
I like writing as a tool for thinking about these things.

11:14-11:15
Journaling for me is very helpful.

11:16-11:29
For people who don’t particularly like journaling, it can be as simple as a brainstorm with a friend or a colleague where the two of you can discuss the emotions that can drive you and give you intrinsic motivation.

11:30-11:32
And it’s very different for everyone.

11:34-11:40
So, yeah, I’d recommend just practicing self-reflection to find what is your source of intrinsic motivation.

11:42-11:52
It seems like from what you mentioned, which is very helpful and to have curiosity as a way to, you know, replace judgment or assumptions with curiosity.

11:52-11:54
It’s a good starting point.

11:55-12:04
And it also seems like people have a probably complex, ever-changing ratio of extrinsic versus intrinsic.

12:05-12:14
For example, I was reading even on your website that you had mentioned that someone had reached out to you personally and said, this really made a difference for me and for my daughter.

12:14-12:18
And that’s one person out of 80,000 people that you reach.

12:19-12:24
So you’re getting recognized for something internal, but you’re getting it in an extrinsic way.

12:25-12:32
So it feels like in some ways, and I’m just thinking with you here, understanding what really drives you.

12:32-12:39
It’s probably combinations of all those and that, and you have to be willing to accept that it will change over time.

12:40-12:41
Absolutely.

12:42-13:02
And I think it’s also important to understand the subtle difference between extrinsic motivation and extrinsic rewards, because intrinsic motivation is really relying on those external rewards for to stay motivated.

13:02-13:27
Whereas sometimes you can get those external rewards and it’s nice. It’s nice to have. It feels good, but you’re not waiting for these in order to be motivated. And so that’s how it works for me with my writing, for example. My intrinsic motivation is curiosity. And this is something nobody can take away from me. I’m going to remain curious and I can use that as my drive.

13:27-13:56
And then sometimes I get external rewards. I will get a really nice email from a reader. I will get someone I admire who reshires one of my articles. And this is an amazing feeling. So I am not denying that external rewards can be very powerful as well. But it’s good to enjoy them and appreciate them when they happen without relying on them in order to stay motivated because they can be quite unreliable.

13:56-14:19
So I’d like to talk a bit about teamwork, leadership, and it seems as though you had an early tip from managers in prior experiences where when they introduced this sense of an incomplete or a curious notion that you would then burrow in and apply your full force of interest on.

14:20-14:38
You know, what about on the other side when you’re leading others? I have a lot of clients who are standing up a new team. They might be an expert in a subject. And then all of a sudden they’re saying here, there are 10 people now who report to you. And they’re always looking for, you know, a playbook or a starting point.

14:39-14:58
And I’ve heard from some of my people that I’ve interviewed, you know, really being not only a wonderful listener, but ensuring that the loudest voice in the room maybe goes last to not influence the direction of the meeting and getting radical candor to have people share what they’re truly thinking in a constructive way.

15:00-17:05
What have you noticed in terms of leading others or being inspiring others, mentoring others, and applying what you’ve learned and seen in your experience, but also in your PhD program, that gets the best out of people in a way that has them achieve more than they can do themselves or think that they can do? One of the most important success factors for a team, and there’s been quite a bit of research around this is psychological safety. So anything a leader can do to foster psychological safety within their team is going to be a net positive. I’m going to share one tool that I absolutely love that I’ve been using with my own team at Nest Labs and it’s called a personal manual. So a little bit like when you go to Ikea and you buy a piece of and it comes with a manual explaining to you how to put it together, how to use it, so it works the way you want it to work. The personal manual is a little PowerPoint, can be done in Google Slides or whatever format that you want, pretty short, that explains how to best work with you and how to get the best out of you. It includes communication style, so for example, some people would rather that you just ping them and send them a quick chat whenever you have a question and they’ll just answer here and there with your answer done and they’ll get back to work. Other people hate being interrupted like this and they can put in their manual. For me, I’d rather that you send me an email and you put all of your questions in there and I promise I will find time at some point during the day and I will reply to everything but please, please only ping me if it’s really urgent. You can also put in your, if you work in an office, some people say, if I put my headphones on, that means don’t come and talk to me. That’s what it means.

17:06-17:30
It means I need quiet time and that I’m being focused. You can also put how you like to receive feedback. Some people really like the sandwich approach where you give them a little bit of praise and then some constructive feedback and then a little bit of praise. Other people, They just want to get it straight, just tell them what’s wrong and how they can improve because they’ll get a little bit annoyed with the sandwich approach.

17:30-17:36
So there’s lots of different things that you can put in there, including work hours.

17:36-17:46
Some people, they actually close their laptop pretty early, like at 4:00 PM, but then they reopen their laptop at 8:00 PM after they’re done taking care of their kids, for example.

17:46-17:56
So you can put that in there and say, hey, if I’m not replying between those hours, it’s because I’m taking care of my kids, but then I’ll come back and I’m not expecting an answer from you at those weird hours I’m working.

17:57-18:13
And the idea here, if you’re a leader or a manager, is to ask any new joiner to create their own personal manual and then to share it with the rest of the team and everyone has to read it as well.

18:13-18:18
And even if you’re not going to remember every single aspect of it, it’s a great way to get to know each other.

18:19-18:37
And because you all put them in the same repository, you can go if you’re about to have a difficult conversation with someone, or maybe you’re about to organize a very important brainstorming meeting for a product, you wanna make sure that it goes as smoothly as possible, you can go in that repository and have a quick look at all of the manuals from people in your team.

18:43-18:44
– This is brilliant.

18:44-18:46
I love it because it’s a user manual.

18:47-18:54
And it’s funny because right here, I have one of my teammates and recently she gave me like, this is the keys to success with me.

18:55-18:59
And I keep it right here because I use it to scan before we communicate.

19:00-19:08
And it’s incredibly helpful because I have the best of intentions, but if I didn’t have it written down, I wouldn’t have those on cue.

19:09-19:11
I’m also seeing opportunities here.

19:11-19:15
If you have a team of 10 per se, you know, they’d probably be sub factions.

19:16-19:18
Some people like the quiet work.

19:18-19:21
Some people like team building, extroverted and so on.

19:21-19:29
So you could probably find ways to sort through that data of your team to really optimize the way that everyone’s working together.

19:29-19:41
And this ties in a little bit with a theme that I’ve noticed in this post pandemic era at Laura, which is people are trying to be very deliberate now with, if we’re in the office, are we here for a purpose?

19:42-19:45
If we’re working remotely, are we being as efficient as we can?

19:46-19:55
Are we using our intention to drive outcomes, not just defaulting to what we know to be easy?

19:56-19:58
And so this is really an intentional way.

20:00-20:09
And I love your idea, actually, of even making it a little bit more data-driven and using that information to design better work experiences for your team.

20:09-20:21
As with a lot of processes and ways to work better, it really starts with having a little bit more information and communicating a little bit more transparently.

20:22-20:30
Once you have this and you decide to intentionally action that information, you are going to become a better leader.

20:32-20:33
It’s funny.

20:33-20:37
I did a workshop with a company and there were about 100 people.

20:37-20:42
but in it, they actually had to think about giving and receiving feedback.

20:43-21:08
And then they had to generate a checklist as a way to, you know, if I’m going to get feedback, I want it to be this way. If I’m going to give, it has to be this way. And then we made it modular so that you could almost assemble your checklist to give to your manager and vice versa so that they would know that there has to be some ingredients in there, but this is the way that you want to receive that information and vice versa.

21:08-21:19
And I think the idea that people co-created the checklist is making it more likely that they’re going to buy into the execution and adherence to it.

21:20-21:24
Exactly, which is funny actually, because it’s called the IKI effect.

21:25-21:33
The fact that people tend to use and apply tools more if they participated in building them.

21:33-21:34
Yeah.

21:34-23:41
I’d like to talk about meta learning, which is something I learned after university was over for me, which was just such a shame, which is learning how to learn. And I consider myself an eternal student. There’s nothing that I love more than learning and reading and reading your articles and consuming podcasts and media. It’s just, I feel like the older I get and the more I consume, the less I know and the more expansive the world becomes. At the same time, if I go back to something that’s very practical and tactical, many people that I speak to have extremely short amounts of time where they can then start to master new skills, whether it’s managing a very high stakes, stressful situation with a new colleague or partner. And so what I always try to remind them is that we can make simple frameworks that it’s easy to fall back on because the stress and emotions of the moment might pull you aside and you want to always fall back to to simple uh you know frameworks i’d love to get your approach on a meta learning and sort of learning how to learn and then be applying it in a way that can quickly speed up the mastery of a new skill, but also keep it sticky and keep it present. So I would love to start somewhere and let’s dive into meta learning. Yes. Um, I think what’s really important, especially for people who are very curious and he love learning is first to make sure that meta learning doesn’t become the main focus because we need to remember that the goal ultimately is to learn actual skills and actual knowledge versus learning about learning. So what I always recommend is to make sure that when it comes to meta learning to practice just-in-time learning.

23:41-23:47
Don’t spend hours taking lots of different courses about meta learning.

23:47-24:01
And instead, when you’re about to try to learn something new that is a bit different, that you feel like is going to require a slightly different approach to learning, then you can seek meta learning tools that are going to help you do this better.

24:01-24:34
And first, it’s going to save you a lot of time because you’re only going to acquire meta learning tools helpful to you to actually achieve something. And second, it’s going to make it stickier, because learning by doing is actually one of the best ways to make sure that you retain that information for the long term. One of my favorite meta learning tools that I use all the time is making sure to balance focused and diffused thinking whenever I’m trying to study something.

24:35-24:38
And it’s something I also learned pretty late, actually.

24:39-24:48
I used to try and cram as much information as possible in my mind before a big meeting or before a presentation.

24:48-24:53
And it’s a trap in which busy people tend to fall into a lot because they’re busy.

24:53-24:58
So by the nature of their schedule, they will try to cram as much as possible the day before.

24:59-25:08
The best, best service that you can give to yourself and to your brain is to divide that work into little chunks.

25:08-25:10
And sometimes even if it’s two chunks or three.

25:11-25:26
So instead of trying to do everything the day before, just starting like a couple of days before and do an hour there, half an hour there, but having those those breaks and letting the diffuse mode of thinking do the work in the background in between the sessions is very important.

25:27-28:20
We discussed earlier in this conversation the importance of connecting new information with existing knowledge that you already have. And this is what happens when you take those breaks. Your brain in the background is going to look for those connections and make those connections and reinforce those patterns of knowledge for you without having to make any conscious effort. And the result is that you’re going to, again, understand the content better, remember it better. And then if you need to deliver that content, if it’s for a workshop or a presentation or coaching, you’re going to deliver it in a much more clearer way and in a way that’s going to be a lot more persuasive as well. It reminds me of Daniel Coyle wrote a book on talent and developing talent. And he distinguishes between hard skills like a tennis swing or even just the mechanics of giving a speech and soft skills, which is that just in time application of a skill. And he breaks it down into three R’s. You have to be able to read the situation, recognize patterns, and then he says react, but I’m going to replace that with respond because it feels more that you’re driving the narrative and and that second piece that recognizing one has to have the presence of mind and calmness to be able to sit back and in nanoseconds recognize something that’s on on happening in the moment and then maybe apply it or connect it to their learning so i’m just making some connections from what you’re sharing here Yes, and you won’t be able to do this and to respond in the moment if those connections are weak. You need strong connections for you to be able to very quickly navigate that web of knowledge and go and pick the framework or the tool that’s most helpful for the situation. So, again, very important to give enough time and space for your brain to create those strong connections. Obviously, you are sometimes going to find yourself in situations where it’s a last minute presentation or last minute briefing and you cram that information in your head and then you’re going to deliver it and that’s fine but you just need to avoid fooling yourself in the sense that that information is going to be as quickly forgotten as you know as you you acquired it so if the goal is long-term retention and making sure that what you’re studying is going to be something that you can then apply in management and any kind of conversations that you have with any kind of stakeholders, it takes a bit of time and effort.

28:20-28:30
There are strategies that can help you learn better, but there are no hacks that will allow you to learn something in five minutes and retain it for years.

28:31-28:31
Yeah.

28:33-28:46
I was looking at the sequence of learning a podcast episode last night, and there was some evidence from last year, I believe, and I’ll send you the link because I’m sure I’m going to butcher this, but let me just recall.

28:47-28:54
When they looked at receiving information and then there were two modes after that, it was deep one and deep two.

28:55-29:06
It was either deep one was first putting a pattern together and then after that recalling the information or inverting that, recalling the information and then putting a pattern together.

29:06-29:11
The most effective was the first where you had the information.

29:11-29:14
24 hours later, you had to assemble a pattern.

29:14-29:19
And then after that, there was recapturing or sort of sourcing that information.

29:20-29:22
So I’m sure I got this wrong.

29:22-29:23
I’ll send you the article.

29:23-29:26
But that was what I remember from last night.

29:26-29:29
And I should, of course, use that on my learning system of that.

29:30-29:31
I’d love to read it.

29:31-29:31
Thank you.

29:32-29:33
Yeah, I will send that along.

29:34-29:35
All right.

29:35-29:43
Well, I’m mindful that we have a few minutes left, so I could talk to you for hours, but out of respect for your calendar and also to make sure that it’s actionable.

29:43-29:45
I love this personal journal.

29:46-29:48
I love that as a team building skill and also deepening.

29:49-29:54
I have two more questions and I’ll be to be very selfish with it.

29:54-30:00
So one thing I’ve heard from people who say, well, I don’t notice psychological safety at my company.

30:01-30:08
And what I’ve usually said to them is, well, if it’s something that’s fundamentally wrong, maybe it’s not the right company.

30:08-30:20
But if it’s something where you just notice that it may not be a clear signal coming from the top, maybe there is value in banding together in your team of 20 people to create that in a microcosm.

30:20-30:26
So my first question is, how does one create psychological safety if you’re not getting clear signals from the top?

30:27-30:29
And then if I have time, I’ll ask my final question.

30:30-30:44
If you’re in a company where it is encouraged to practice peer learning, you can very simply put together a mini workshop, a meeting where you tell everyone, hey, if you’re interested in this topic, come over.

30:45-30:48
And here’s the concept of a personal user manual.

30:49-30:54
And we’re going to create our personal user manual in like an hour and a half all together.

30:54-30:58
And then at least everyone who’s in that meeting has done it together.

30:58-30:59
They know that these exist.

30:59-31:03
They can put them in a repository and that’s a good start.

31:03-31:11
And then if you see that that’s helpful and it will be, you can use that to go and talk to leadership.

31:11-31:18
Not just about a vague idea, but something that has been put together that people are practicing and getting value from.

31:19-31:20
So that’s where I would get started.

31:21-31:22
That’s brilliant.

31:22-31:26
And it also gives you hard proof that it’s not just a one-off workshop.

31:27-31:28
Here’s the evidence.

31:28-31:30
This is what our team is saying.

31:30-31:31
We’ll get the best out of them.

31:32-31:33
So there’s a lot there.

31:34-31:40
My final question is going to come from a different direction, but it’s something that’s plagued me for years.

31:40-31:48
And so before I got into doing this, I did stand-up comedy for years, and I would often perform seven to ten times a week.

31:49-31:54
And so I had these constant ways of preparing, rehearsing, meditating, being in the moment.

31:55-31:57
When things would go south, I would quickly try to fix them.

31:57-32:00
And sometimes in the same night, I could stack my learning.

32:01-32:22
The challenge that I’ve seen with a lot of my clients who are busy executives and companies is I’ve always known that, you know, that deliberate practice, to paraphrase Anders Ericsson, of having a very small goal, working on it very deliberately, and then looking at the data and repeating is useful.

32:22-32:33
At the same time, I’ve gotten a lot of pushback from people who don’t like role playing or practicing or find it hard to put on the camera or get in front of a mirror.

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I’m not a huge fan of that, but I know in my heart of hearts, maybe I’m just biased that having a few repetitions is going to be incredibly helpful.

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Have you seen any evidence or research or in your own experience of having people practice soft skills in a way that is low stakes, but also in a way that is meaningfully accelerating their acquisition and mastery of skills?

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My most recent example was attending a public speaking course where we all practice public speaking, but in a much smaller group.

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So we were maybe a dozen people at most with a coach.

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And what I think was great about it is that you can practice public speaking one-to-one with a coach, but I don’t think that’s ever going to give you the same level of improvement as if you do it in front of an actual audience, because 90% of the challenge with public speaking is the public aspects of it.

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People know how to speak.

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It’s once you have dozens of eyes looking at you and potentially judging you that it becomes nerve wracking to speak.

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That being said, it can be terrifying to go straight from zero to presenting at a conference.

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So doing it in a small group can be a good middle ground to experience a little bit of that anxiety and learn how to master it.

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and then taking it step by step, and then you can have a bigger audience. So I would say in general, for anything like this that requires deliberate practice, but that also triggers a little bit of anxiety, I would just ask myself, what is the smaller, slightly less terrifying version of the big thing? And then start there, instead of completely rejecting the idea of deliberate practice. I love that. And it’s, I believe that you have to have a lower stakes environment.

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And then I also, you know, having a few chances to repeat and, and just work on one thing at a time can really help bring up your confidence and your skillset that you might not be prepared for everything, but at least you feel like you have a competence that will carry you through the next challenge. So it’s a wonderful coaching tool. All right. Well, I think I’m at time. Um, I just like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. This was a fascinating conversation that I could have gone on for a lot longer. Um, I’d like to recommend everyone look online for Ann Lars, um, newsletter.

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She’s on Twitter, on Instagram threads and YouTube at Nuran, which is at N-E-U-R-A-N-N-E.

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And of course, your amazing newsletter.

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Is there anything else that I did not mention that you’d like to mention to listeners so they can understand or participate in all that you do?

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This is all great.

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Thank you so much.

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That was an amazing conversation.

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And yes, the best way to stay in touch is my newsletter, which is at nestlabs.com slash newsletter.

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Yes, I will recommend and make sure that there’s links in the notes so that everyone can participate and be a part of it.

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And just I’m thrilled to have had some time to speak with you.

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And I wish you a wonderful rest of the day.

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You too.

35:55-35:55
Thank you.

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Thanks for listening to the show.

35:58-36:03
For more information, please check out InfluencedDNA.co.

36:04-36:09
And you can also leave us a six-star review, but we’ll settle for five.

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See you on the next one.